Discussion:
Amazing Race 28 Live Stream Starting Line
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Ken McElhaney
2015-11-16 03:15:35 UTC
Permalink
Yup, it's late notice, but I didn't know about it until just now.
http://tinyurl.com/p5a6rsk
Frosty
2015-11-16 03:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken McElhaney
Yup, it's late notice, but I didn't know about it until just now.
http://tinyurl.com/p5a6rsk
Just in time.
Brian Smith
2015-11-16 03:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frosty
Post by Ken McElhaney
Yup, it's late notice, but I didn't know about it until just now.
http://tinyurl.com/p5a6rsk
Just in time.
Assuming it starts on time. Less than 5 minutes if CBS's latest update is
correct.
--
Brian
Brian Smith
2015-11-16 04:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Smith
Post by Frosty
Post by Ken McElhaney
Yup, it's late notice, but I didn't know about it until just now.
http://tinyurl.com/p5a6rsk
Just in time.
Assuming it starts on time. Less than 5 minutes if CBS's latest update is
correct.
Phil tweeted about 10 minutes ago that the teams are about 45 minutes away
but he's going live on Facebook soon.
--
Brian
Ken McElhaney
2015-11-16 04:47:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken McElhaney
Yup, it's late notice, but I didn't know about it until just now.
http://tinyurl.com/p5a6rsk
....and it's not really a starting line, but rather arriving at a clue box. Oh well, it was live.

Ken
Brian Smith
2015-11-16 05:02:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken McElhaney
Post by Ken McElhaney
Yup, it's late notice, but I didn't know about it until just now.
http://tinyurl.com/p5a6rsk
....and it's not really a starting line, but rather arriving at a clue box.
Oh well, it was live.
It was better than nothing and he did answer some questions. Also cool that
he talked to that fan. I wonder if he does that at other times when he's got
a few free minutes and nothing else to do?
--
Brian
Ken McElhaney
2015-11-16 14:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Smith
Post by Ken McElhaney
Post by Ken McElhaney
Yup, it's late notice, but I didn't know about it until just now.
http://tinyurl.com/p5a6rsk
....and it's not really a starting line, but rather arriving at a clue box.
Oh well, it was live.
It was better than nothing and he did answer some questions. Also cool that
he talked to that fan. I wonder if he does that at other times when he's got
a few free minutes and nothing else to do?
Jeez, ALL the time.

The live feed was supposed to start at 9:30pm CST and it didn't start until 10:45pm CST because the teams had not arrived.

Easily the biggest difference between the actual race and what is edited for television is TIME. It appears on the show that contestants are up against a very rigid clock and only have minutes to accomplish their tasks, get to new locations, etc.

In reality, the race itself normally takes HOURS to go from location to location, complete tasks, etc. It's little wonder that they don't do much in the way of LIVE TV because it would be so BORING. I don't think you would find it interesting to see Phil look at his watch for an hour and fifteen minutes.

A great analogy is the old World Championship Poker matches that ESPN used to run (maybe they still do, I don't know). ESPN presented these matches in edited, one hour formats which provided excitement, drama and made for great TV. Then, they did LIVE matches that lasted several hours and were mostly BORING because little actually happened between the interesting hands. It's little wonder that viewer interest went down.

Same goes for TAR. A little excitement here and there, but most of the race is flat out boring from a viewer standpoint. d

Ken
Ken McElhaney
2015-11-16 16:17:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken McElhaney
Post by Brian Smith
Post by Ken McElhaney
Post by Ken McElhaney
Yup, it's late notice, but I didn't know about it until just now.
http://tinyurl.com/p5a6rsk
....and it's not really a starting line, but rather arriving at a clue box.
Oh well, it was live.
It was better than nothing and he did answer some questions. Also cool that
he talked to that fan. I wonder if he does that at other times when he's got
a few free minutes and nothing else to do?
Jeez, ALL the time.
The live feed was supposed to start at 9:30pm CST and it didn't start until 10:45pm CST because the teams had not arrived.
Easily the biggest difference between the actual race and what is edited for television is TIME. It appears on the show that contestants are up against a very rigid clock and only have minutes to accomplish their tasks, get to new locations, etc.
In reality, the race itself normally takes HOURS to go from location to location, complete tasks, etc. It's little wonder that they don't do much in the way of LIVE TV because it would be so BORING. I don't think you would find it interesting to see Phil look at his watch for an hour and fifteen minutes.
A great analogy is the old World Championship Poker matches that ESPN used to run (maybe they still do, I don't know). ESPN presented these matches in edited, one hour formats which provided excitement, drama and made for great TV. Then, they did LIVE matches that lasted several hours and were mostly BORING because little actually happened between the interesting hands. It's little wonder that viewer interest went down.
Same goes for TAR. A little excitement here and there, but most of the race is flat out boring from a viewer standpoint. d
Ken
Having said all that, the notion of having the start of the race or showing the cluebox on the first leg live on the internet is a good one and if TAR is renewed then they should do that again.

However, the idea of showing more of the race live? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Last night's one hour, fifteen minute wait was proof positive that such things would not work at least in terms of entertaining the viewer in any meaningful way.

Of course, it does remove any lingering notion that somehow CBS or TAR manipulates the race because if they did we wouldn't be waiting an hour and fifteen minutes which certainly lost some viewers who couldn't stay up that late.

Ken
Brian Smith
2015-11-16 19:42:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken McElhaney
Post by Ken McElhaney
Post by Brian Smith
Post by Ken McElhaney
Post by Ken McElhaney
Yup, it's late notice, but I didn't know about it until just now.
http://tinyurl.com/p5a6rsk
....and it's not really a starting line, but rather arriving at a clue box.
Oh well, it was live.
It was better than nothing and he did answer some questions. Also cool that
he talked to that fan. I wonder if he does that at other times when he's got
a few free minutes and nothing else to do?
Jeez, ALL the time.
The live feed was supposed to start at 9:30pm CST and it didn't start
until 10:45pm CST because the teams had not arrived.
Easily the biggest difference between the actual race and what is edited
for television is TIME. It appears on the show that contestants are up
against a very rigid clock and only have minutes to accomplish their
tasks, get to new locations, etc.
In reality, the race itself normally takes HOURS to go from location to
location, complete tasks, etc. It's little wonder that they don't do much
in the way of LIVE TV because it would be so BORING. I don't think you
would find it interesting to see Phil look at his watch for an hour and
fifteen minutes.
A great analogy is the old World Championship Poker matches that ESPN
used to run (maybe they still do, I don't know). ESPN presented these
matches in edited, one hour formats which provided excitement, drama and
made for great TV. Then, they did LIVE matches that lasted several hours
and were mostly BORING because little actually happened between the
interesting hands. It's little wonder that viewer interest went down.
Same goes for TAR. A little excitement here and there, but most of the
race is flat out boring from a viewer standpoint. d
Ken
Having said all that, the notion of having the start of the race or showing
the cluebox on the first leg live on the internet is a good one and if TAR
is renewed then they should do that again.
However, the idea of showing more of the race live? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
Where did I say anything about showing the race live?
Post by Ken McElhaney
Last night's one hour, fifteen minute wait was proof positive that such
things would not work at least in terms of entertaining the viewer in any
meaningful way.
If they were to show the race live they would have to provide multiple feeds
like they do for BB. I'm sure as is the case with BB that feed subscribers
would know that there is tons of down time. Until CBS airs the race live
there will never be feeds unless they don't care if who won leaks out months
before they air the race.
Post by Ken McElhaney
Of course, it does remove any lingering notion that somehow CBS or TAR
manipulates the race because if they did we wouldn't be waiting an hour and
fifteen minutes which certainly lost some viewers who couldn't stay up that
late.
It does? lol I don't recall anyone ever stating that they're powerful enough
to control outside factors such as when planes, etc. arrive. It would be
nice though if CBS could get their info straight in terms of what we were
going to see. Their webpage clearly stated the starting line not a clue box
and I think that ticked off some people who did not watch Phil's little
initial 25 second clip. Oh well, CBS's web people have sucked for years
because they seem to have no idea about the shows they're writing about.
--
Brian
Ken McElhaney
2015-11-16 22:33:24 UTC
Permalink
"Ken McElhaney" wrote in message
(snipping to annoy)
Post by Ken McElhaney
Last night's one hour, fifteen minute wait was proof positive that such
things would not work at least in terms of entertaining the viewer in any
meaningful way.
If they were to show the race live they would have to provide multiple feeds
like they do for BB. I'm sure as is the case with BB that feed subscribers
would know that there is tons of down time. Until CBS airs the race live
there will never be feeds unless they don't care if who won leaks out months
before they air the race.
Well, CBS would never show the race live, at least not beyond the beginnings of the first leg because it would give away too much information.

However, they could RECORD it live and show it after the fact. Imagine what TAR would be like then? You'd have nine/ten hours or more of straight footage 99% of which would be BORING beyond belief as nothing interesting would be happening.

Having said that, it would be enlightening to see the race in that manner because it would show just how much time teams have to make decisions, perform tasks, etc. It would change the entire perception of how viewers see contestants as the edited version of the show implies that they have little time to think or react. Yet the live version would show them with PLENTY of time to make reasonable choices.

It's not to say that mistakes would not occur anyway, but it would put contestants in a far less favorable light when they screw up by making decisions too fast when they obviously had plenty of time to work with.
Post by Ken McElhaney
Of course, it does remove any lingering notion that somehow CBS or TAR
manipulates the race because if they did we wouldn't be waiting an hour and
fifteen minutes which certainly lost some viewers who couldn't stay up that
late.
It does? lol I don't recall anyone ever stating that they're powerful enough
to control outside factors such as when planes, etc. arrive.
Actually, you have stated that CBS or TAR has manipulated the times teams arrive in order to make a more "exciting" race. I'm glad to see that you have backed off that position now because if they can't even arrange a simple set up at a cluebox right, then the very idea that the "manipulate" the race is pure silliness.

Of course, I don't expect you to remember such statements that you defended with vigor years ago, so I'll just leave you with this.

Instead of who gets to the airport first, the teams COMPETE to see who gets on which flight for the first leg. That would be pretty interesting, different and enjoyable. Then, TAR drivers take the teams to the airport so that they cannot miss one of the two pre-scheduled flights.

The teams arrive in Mexico City and are taken by TAR Drivers to a bunching point at the park where they compete to see who leaves the bunching point first and in what order which again would be interesting and fun if they make the challenge a good one.

So, no-way, no-day could they miss the live feed time because all of this happens WELL in advance and under CBS/TAR control.

So, with all the teams at the site LONG before the live feed time to ensure that it goes off without a hitch, CBS can then start it on-time and we get to see each team arrive two to three minutes apart (thanks to their numbers) so that they can say "hi" and such which makes for a GREAT live feed.

If indeed there is ANY manipulation of the race itself by CBS/TAR, then such an act would be easy-peasy to do...right? And furthermore, NO ONE would question it since the "manipulation" itself is not biased towards any team. Who wins is up to the teams.

So, if they could not even do that...then what does that say about manipulating the race if CBS/TAR was willing to screw up a live feed by delaying it an hour 'n fifteen minutes where they LOST potential viewers? I would think that they would want the most people possible to watch...right?

No manipulation, period.
It would be nice though if CBS could get their info straight in terms of what we were going to see. Their webpage clearly stated the starting line not a clue box and I think that ticked off some people who did not watch Phil's little initial 25 second clip. Oh well, CBS's web people have sucked for years because they seem to have no idea about the shows they're writing about.
I cannot speak for CBS's web people, I can only say that it does show the disconnect that CBS and TAR have when it comes to what's happening in the race. It seems that they probably were going to have live cameras on the starting line, but that may have changed for some reason that we are unaware. So, they set up this makeshift cluebox bit and went with that.

Ken
Questor
2015-11-17 01:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken McElhaney
Of course, it does remove any lingering notion that somehow CBS or TAR
manipulates the race because if they did we wouldn't be waiting an hour and
fifteen minutes which certainly lost some viewers who couldn't stay up that
late
As has been amply demonstrated elsewhere, facts -- or lack of same -- doesn't
deter some people who are determined to believe that the outcomes on reality
shows like TAR are heavily influenced by the producers, if not out-and-out
dictated by them.
Ken McElhaney
2015-11-17 02:10:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Questor
Post by Ken McElhaney
Of course, it does remove any lingering notion that somehow CBS or TAR
manipulates the race because if they did we wouldn't be waiting an hour and
fifteen minutes which certainly lost some viewers who couldn't stay up that
late
As has been amply demonstrated elsewhere, facts -- or lack of same -- doesn't
deter some people who are determined to believe that the outcomes on reality
shows like TAR are heavily influenced by the producers, if not out-and-out
dictated by them.
Well, that is certainly true and Brian has been a leading voice in the "TAR is manipulated" movement despite ample evidence to the contrary.

A blown live camera setup which started an hour and fifteen minutes late that turned away viewers is a flat-out contradiction to any "manipulation" theory because it would have been so easy for CBS/TAR to fix well ahead of time. If a late plane flight is enough to throw it off as Brian suggested, then manipulating TAR during the race is pretty much out of the question since late flights, taxis and whatnot happen ALL the time.

I understand that no amount of evidence will change Brian's mind, but it's nice to see yet another example of how CBS/TAR actually lets the race go on its own terms.

Ken
Brian Smith
2015-11-17 02:36:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken McElhaney
On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:17:17 -0800 (PST), Ken McElhaney
Post by Ken McElhaney
Of course, it does remove any lingering notion that somehow CBS or TAR
manipulates the race because if they did we wouldn't be waiting an hour and
fifteen minutes which certainly lost some viewers who couldn't stay up that
late
As has been amply demonstrated elsewhere, facts -- or lack of same -- doesn't
deter some people who are determined to believe that the outcomes on reality
shows like TAR are heavily influenced by the producers, if not out-and-out
dictated by them.
Well, that is certainly true and Brian has been a leading voice in the "TAR
is manipulated" movement despite ample evidence to the contrary.
A blown live camera setup which started an hour and fifteen minutes late
that turned away viewers is a flat-out contradiction to any "manipulation"
theory because it would have been so easy for CBS/TAR to fix well ahead of
time. If a late plane flight is enough to throw it off as Brian suggested,
then manipulating TAR during the race is pretty much out of the question
since late flights, taxis and whatnot happen ALL the time.
I understand that no amount of evidence will change Brian's mind, but it's
nice to see yet another example of how CBS/TAR actually lets the race go on
its own terms.
Ken
Ken, you must miss arguing with me. I've never said they manipulate the race
in that manner but others have including past racers. What I've said is that
they manipulate things such as opening/closing times of certain venues so
they can get their bunching point to equalize the race out. If they didn't
ask some of these places to put up hand-written notices we would seldom see
all the teams bunching up like we do every season at some point. I'll also
remind you again that manipulation is not the same as rigging. CBS would
never allow any of these shows to be rigged.

One last point/observation. What was with Phil directing teams to the clue
box? Since when is that allowed? We've seen teams in the past waste a ton of
time looking for clue boxes even when they're practically right in front of
their faces. Any chance Phil was trying to get them back on track so they
wouldn't miss out on the next key transportation component of the leg/race?
--
Brian
Ken McElhaney
2015-11-17 05:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Smith
Post by Ken McElhaney
On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:17:17 -0800 (PST), Ken McElhaney
Post by Ken McElhaney
Of course, it does remove any lingering notion that somehow CBS or TAR
manipulates the race because if they did we wouldn't be waiting an hour and
fifteen minutes which certainly lost some viewers who couldn't stay up that
late
As has been amply demonstrated elsewhere, facts -- or lack of same -- doesn't
deter some people who are determined to believe that the outcomes on reality
shows like TAR are heavily influenced by the producers, if not out-and-out
dictated by them.
Well, that is certainly true and Brian has been a leading voice in the "TAR
is manipulated" movement despite ample evidence to the contrary.
A blown live camera setup which started an hour and fifteen minutes late
that turned away viewers is a flat-out contradiction to any "manipulation"
theory because it would have been so easy for CBS/TAR to fix well ahead of
time. If a late plane flight is enough to throw it off as Brian suggested,
then manipulating TAR during the race is pretty much out of the question
since late flights, taxis and whatnot happen ALL the time.
I understand that no amount of evidence will change Brian's mind, but it's
nice to see yet another example of how CBS/TAR actually lets the race go on
its own terms.
Ken
Ken, you must miss arguing with me. I've never said they manipulate the race
in that manner but others have including past racers. What I've said is that
they manipulate things such as opening/closing times of certain venues so
they can get their bunching point to equalize the race out.
Well, that's not really "manipulation" since it is all done in advance and does not favor a particular team. That is the design of the race course done weeks in advance based on the background info I've read about TAR and how they put the race together behind the scenes.
Post by Brian Smith
If they didn't
ask some of these places to put up hand-written notices we would seldom see
all the teams bunching up like we do every season at some point. I'll also
remind you again that manipulation is not the same as rigging. CBS would
never allow any of these shows to be rigged.
Brian, you have argued very forcefully in the past that TAR "manipulates" the race so that certain teams are kept in because they are more "exciting" than others and they do this for ratings purposes.

If that is NOT your position today, then so be it. But please do not try to run from your past, it is very unseemly and frankly laughable as you went to great lengths to show otherwise even if it was all in a failing effort.
Post by Brian Smith
One last point/observation. What was with Phil directing teams to the clue
box? Since when is that allowed?
Well, let's list all the previous live feeds at the cluebox for reference purposes.

Oh wait, this is the first time so you have no previous reference to base your question on, so you are making an assumption based on an event that has not happened before.
Post by Brian Smith
We've seen teams in the past waste a ton of
time looking for clue boxes even when they're practically right in front of
their faces. Any chance Phil was trying to get them back on track so they
wouldn't miss out on the next key transportation component of the leg/race?
This was the first live feed of a cluebox in TAR history, correct?

Think about it. We've seen teams arrive at the first cluebox in ALL previous races in TAR history several minutes if not an hour or more apart due to so-called "bad" taxi cab drivers, not understanding the clue, etc.

So, why would Phil be so confident that ALL of the teams were the same number of minutes away?

Because this part of the race was DESIGNED to keep them together for this moment.

You ASSUME that this part of the race up to this point is like ALL previous races which it clearly was not.

Instead, TAR decides for this season to really not start the "meat" of this leg until AFTER all the teams arrive at the cluebox and get on camera.

It makes good sense for several reasons;

- It gets ALL the teams to the cluebox together so the live feed is short and sweet.

- NONE of the teams can accidentally blurt out something that happened because nothing has really happened at this point.

- ALL of the teams get to start from the cluebox on rather equal footing which is DIFFERENT and a GOOD change for TAR. Instead of knowing some teams are behind, we know ALL of them are together at this point and have a fighting chance to avoid elimination.

There is NO 'manipulation' since it's part of the design of the leg which was planned well in advance and the result would have been great IF the teams were not so late.

However, how could Phil be so wrong about the TIME that all the teams arrived which frankly put a HUGE crimp in the live feed?

Clearly, if CBS/TAR were actually skilled at this type of stuff all of the teams would have been there ON TIME for the maximum number of viewers. But they were not and if CBS/TAR cannot achieve even that measly little bit of 'manipulation', then it throws a big bucket of cold water on the idea that they could 'manipulate' much of anything else on the fly during the race itself.

The very late arrival of the teams demonstrates what Phil and everyone else who is a part of TAR has been saying for all of these years in that they let the race happen. They may make intricate designs of the race in the weeks leading up to it, but making quick changes during the race is something that they are very poor at doing.

After all, it makes no sense to LOSE viewers because the live feed was an hour 'n fifteen minutes late. So, if they could have done something about it (like, start the teams MUCH earlier in the day to ensure they would be there on time) they would have done it.

Ken
Questor
2015-11-17 19:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken McElhaney
Post by Ken McElhaney
Of course, it does remove any lingering notion that somehow CBS or TAR
manipulates the race because if they did we wouldn't be waiting an hour and
and
Post by Ken McElhaney
fifteen minutes which certainly lost some viewers who couldn't stay up that
late
As has been amply demonstrated elsewhere, facts -- or lack of same -- doe=
sn't
deter some people who are determined to believe that the outcomes on real=
ity
shows like TAR are heavily influenced by the producers, if not out-and-ou=
t
dictated by them.
Well, that is certainly true and Brian has been a leading voice in the "TAR
is manipulated" movement despite ample evidence to the contrary.
For the record, I was not thinking of Brian at all when I wrote that, and I was
unaware of his opinion about whether TAR is manipulated, and to what extent.
Ken McElhaney
2015-11-17 19:39:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Questor
Post by Ken McElhaney
Post by Ken McElhaney
Of course, it does remove any lingering notion that somehow CBS or TAR
manipulates the race because if they did we wouldn't be waiting an hour and
and
Post by Ken McElhaney
fifteen minutes which certainly lost some viewers who couldn't stay up that
late
As has been amply demonstrated elsewhere, facts -- or lack of same -- doe=
sn't
deter some people who are determined to believe that the outcomes on real=
ity
shows like TAR are heavily influenced by the producers, if not out-and-ou=
t
dictated by them.
Well, that is certainly true and Brian has been a leading voice in the "TAR
is manipulated" movement despite ample evidence to the contrary.
For the record, I was not thinking of Brian at all when I wrote that, and I was
unaware of his opinion about whether TAR is manipulated, and to what extent.
He was very vocal about it and went to great lengths with articles, interviews with contestants and his own opinions that TAR was "manipulated" by the producers to ensure that the "entertaining" teams stayed in the race for ratings purposes.

Perhaps now he has changed his mind, good for him.

As Phil and others have stated, TAR collects all that footage and then edits what they have accordingly to build up or highlight certain teams after the fact. In other words, they let what the race provides them as their inspiration for the teams that stand out. So, there is no 'manipulation' during the race itself because they don't know what's going to happen until it's all over.

However, he still has this weird notion that manipulating the race so that certain teams stay should not be called "rigged" which is the actual definition of the term.

Oh well, if he wants to warp the English language to suit his own definition, fine.

Ken

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